Gregory Yudin says it is “catastrophic” – but understandable – that most Russians do not speak openly against the war in Ukraine.
While Ukraine and its allies have denounced the Russian invasion, the Kremlin has called it a “special military operation” to disarm its neighbor and oust its so-called neo-Nazi leaders.
Russians who speak openly do so at great personal risk. In the first weeks after the initial invasion, Thousands of Russians have been arrested in anti-war protests. Since then many other dissidents have lost their jobs or been forced to leave.
Yudin, a sociologist and political scientist at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences, was among those arrested for protesting the invasion of Ukraine.
He is still in Russia and still talking. Following is part of his conversation with As It Happens guest speaker Dave Seglin.
How difficult is it to be in Moscow right now and speak out against this war?
The main thing, I suppose, is that it is incredibly difficult to experience the fact that my country, this Russia, is involved in this terrible war of aggression. This is the main challenge, in fact. The rest, I think, is less important.
But the reason why I think it still makes sense to speak from Moscow is just to understand what kind of threat the whole planet is facing right now. And this is something that looks better than Moscow and the Russians.
You described this war as the “most absurd” war [Russian] history. Now, how many Russians agree with you?
The key thing to understand about Russians is that Russians are generally depoliticized, which means they have no interest in politics. They despised politics and taught them to stay away from politics.
What is the narrative, given what we see in these pictures, especially these evidences of atrocities between citizensfrom places like Bucha?
You have to understand that the Russian media creates a completely different picture. People in Russia live in a completely different universe if, of course, they are not willing to find an alternative image. And this is not something you will be tempted to do.
Just imagine that you are beginning to believe in these atrocities, that your army has committed such atrocities, as we have seen in Bucha. What would be your reaction? How can you live with that? What can be done to mitigate this?
The Russians are absolutely certain that they can do nothing to change the course of events. They were taught that they were protesting against [Russian President Vladimir] Putin is as absurd as complaining about the rain.
How do the Russians perceive what is happening in Bukha? [and] in Mariupol, where the theater was bombed [and] the maternity hospital?
The formal narrative does the work of reconciliation. He constantly explains why what is happening now is normal. because it is just a special military operation, not a war. why was it justified? because it will end very quickly and successfully. It will secure and protect both the Russians and the Ukrainians. And all the victims, all the victims, of course, are caused by the Ukrainians themselves.
So this is a story that essentially helps you cope with this situation, it helps you to continue your daily life.
Serhii Lahovskyi, 26, hugs Ludmyla Verginska, 51, as they mourn their mutual friend Ihor Lytvynenko, who residents say was killed by Russian soldiers. (Zohra Bensemra / Reuters)
Clearly you may not share this view. And so I wonder where the dissidents are in Russia?
The dissidents are not really so few. There are many.
At the point where polls still make sense – they do not, of course, because in this situation, it is completely unrealistic to expect people to disagree. is officially criminalized. it is illegal – but in the early stages of this war, we had up to 20 to 25 percent of those who were strongly opposed to this war. And I do not think the number has dropped.
What [can these] do people? I mean, we saw them on the streets in the first days of the war, and that really helped make people understand that there are many, many dissidents in the country.
[At this point], this probably does not make much sense. So there is a lot of discussion about what can be done in the current situation. And this is a difficult question.
To understand how difficult it is, imagine how many Germans and what would be the way for the Germans to protest against the special military operation in Poland in 1939? And that will give you a sense of how things are here in Russia right now.
Help us understand how Russians view financial sanctions. I mean, here in Canada, at least, we have heard that the world’s economic sanctions against Russia would be catastrophic.
At this point, it certainly is not.
There are different types of sanctions. Some of them are targeting the Russian economy in general, but some of them are coming [for] transnational companies. And perhaps the first type of sanctions are more likely to be felt with a delay, while the second type of sanctions may have been felt immediately.
These transnational companies are in fact … announcing that they are leaving Russia. But this is not really the case. They do not leave. If you go to a random mall in Russia, you will find about 30 percent of the stores closed and you will find the announcement “We will open again very soon”, which contributes to the common understanding that this is going to end very soon, probably in a few months.
Critics of this war have left Russia. The media are closing. How dangerous is it for you to keep talking?
A significant part of my people remain silent about this. Well, they probably have reasons to do so. They probably taught them to do it. There is probably an explanation for this.
However, the fact that the government of my country is doing this, and a significant part of the people are silently supporting it, is really disastrous for me.
So as much as I can do anything to stop it, as much as I can tell the public outside Russia how dangerous it is, I think it’s worth continuing.
Written by Sheena Goodyear. Interview produced by Kevin Robertson. The Q&A has been processed for scope and clarity.
